Western science is not going to give us an insight into what mind is. We are using phenomenalizations of mind to discover mind itself. But this is only guessing. It is as if we are using clumps of mind but can only go as far as indefinitely small clumps. We never arrive at unclumpled mind itself. This path requires negation. In Indian religions like Buddhism and Vedanta, we have to handshake with mind. This is an apophatic process that culminates in a handshake with an unclumped mind, that is, a mind before it is phenomenalized. Finally, we understand that we are a mind incarnated and living in a mind-like phenomenal world. Our suffering came about because we identified, not with pure mind, but with a biological construct of mind (“this is mine”, “I am this”, “this is my self”) .