The self and the Tathagata are the same

In the Aggivacchagotta Sutta (M. i. 487–488), the Buddha tells Vaccha that material shape, feeling, perception, habitual tendencies and consciousness, in short, the Five Aggregates, “have been got rid of by the Tathagata, cut off at the root, made like a plam-tree stump that can come to no further existence and is not liable to arise again in the future.”

There are a few things we can learn from this particular passage.  First, like our self, the Tathagata is not to be identified with the Five Aggregates for “He is deep, immeasurable, unfathomable as is the great ocean.”  To be sure, the aggregates are not like the Tathagata.  For one thing, the aggregates belong to Mara the Evil One.  They are impermanent.  They are also synonymous with suffering.  Accordingly, we should not identify with any aggregate as being who we really are reflecting, instead, "This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self (na meso attâ).” 

We can also state without fear of being wrong, that the self or attâ and Tathagata are the same by implication.  Modern Buddhists might find this to be heretical, given their strong attraction towards materialism, but it is logically consistent to say the self and Tathagata are the same since both are not to be found in the sphere of the Five Aggregates. 

 

Comments

[The Zennist]

Josh Panter: No, The Zennist blog thinks the late author of What the Buddha Taught is incorrect about self.

In a nutshell, the Buddha never asked us to deny our intrinsic self. He saw the main problem as this: We identify our intrinsic self with what is impermanent, suffering and not the self (anattâ), this being our psychophysical body which is also called the Five Aggregates.

Fundamentally, we are not this psychophysical organism which had a birth and will soon enough drop dead. To release (vimutta) from it in this lifetime is nirvana which is also immortal.

[Josh Panter]

I am reading a book, What The Buddha Taught, and there is a great deal of attention given to the doctrine of No-Soul. A lot of words are spent really diving into, and driving home the idea that, according to the Buddha, there simply is no reality of the self... at all. Only in conventional terms, but not in any absolute sense. Not in reality. No everlasting soul, no deeper "self" that is "without" the sphere of the Five Aggregates. No true "I Am".

I am curious, if this is also your belief, how can the Tathagata and the self be the same?
What are your thoughts on this?

[Java Junkie Junebug Julius]

In absolute fact, the Atman=wisdom=the Absolute=Tat (Brahman) etc etc.

I found a nice rancid book to peruse, check it out old coot>

http://www.scribd.com/doc/75317201/Mark-Siderits-Personal-Identity-and-Buddhist-Philosophy

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